Category talk:Piemontèis

Do you want Piedmontese Wikisource approved and moved to its own language subdomain?

@Ooswesthoesbes, MF-Warburg, Carlo ellena, Majo Galin-a, Pcastellina: In principle, Piedmontese Wikisource is approvable as an independent project. You have met all necessary requirements, and the Language Committee sees no objection to approving the project, provided the community wants it approved.

In fact, the only comment in LangCom was from MF-Warburg: Do you, the community, want this project spun off, or do you want to leave it inside Multilingual Wikisource?

• Most communities ordinarily want to spin off their projects, and to be able to operate independently. And as I'm sure you know, there are many single-language Wikisource projects that are very successful.

At the same time, Wikisource is a little different, and there may be advantages to leaving the content here.

• In particular, it's easier to concentrate on content creation when you don't also have to worry about the day-to-day business of running the wiki.
• Given the possibility of source documents in multiple languages, it may be more convenient for multilingual coordination for you to stay here, too.

So you three (and any other contributors in this language): Please tell me what you want to see going forward. Thank you. StevenJ81 (talk) (clerk to the Language Committee) 13:55, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I think the most important argument in favour of an own subdomain would be oversight. It will be easier to spot changes to the Piedmontese sources and filter out any harmful edits. On Old Wikisource, RC can be difficult to follow sometimes, and edits which are not helpful (such as spelling fixes which are actually only making things wrong) cannot be filtered out by the administrators who patrol RC here, as they do not speak Piedmontese. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:47, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't disagree. But ultimately the contributing community needs to decide, not you and me. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:54, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@User:StevenJ81It would be wonderful if we could have our own subdomain. You have to direct us, though, step by step, as our experience is limited. Will I be our administrator? Other people from the Wikipedia Piemontèisa could also be invited! Thanks. --Pcastellina (talk) 06:32, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Carlo ellena, Majo Galin-a, Pcastellina: Spero che siate senz'altro favorevoli, il trasferimento darebbe senz'altro maggiore visibilità al vostro lavoro. Se siete preoccupati per le possibili difficoltà tecniche, io sono disponibile a "impostarvi" il nuovo sito in modo che possiate procedere poi autonomamente (mi dovrete in tal caso dare temporaneamente i diritti di amministratore). Finora mi pare che non vi siate mai fatti sentire sul Wikisource italiano, ma saremmo più che contenti che ci veniste a contattare per qualunque futura necessità, o anche solo per scambiarci informazioni sulle rispettive attività ed iniziative. --Candalua (talk) 15:59, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Sarebbe magnifico avere il nostro subdominio Piemonteis, vista anche la mole di materiale gia' presente. Visto che non ho abbastanza competenza tecnica, ogni aiuto sara' piu' che benvenuto. Avro' pure bisogno di dettagliate istruzioni! Fatemi sapere come procedere! A proposito, conosciamo il wikisource italiano, ma vorremmo mantenere la differenza da quello, visto che siamo una realta' linguistica indipendente! --Pcastellina (talk) 22:56, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

@Pcastellina: I would be willing to help you, as I also done that for many other new wiki's. Judging from the reply from Candalua (forgive me, my Italian is purely based on the sparse knowledge I have of other Romance languages), he is also willing to help you. You can become an administrator if you hold a vote on the new subdomain once it is created :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 08:22, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Ma certo, l'obiettivo di eventuali collaborazioni non deve essere quello di "importare" semplicemente in pms le cose fatte su it, bensì di trovare insieme soluzioni "su misura" per il nuovo progetto, che ovviamente ha delle necessità diverse da quelle di it.source.

Se volete procedere, per intanto le cose da fare sono:

• accertarsi che tutte le vostre pagine siano inserite nella categoria "Piemontèis" (in caso contrario non verranno copiate al nuovo sito).
• dovreste fornire una traduzione dei namespace, da inserire in m:Requests_for_new_languages/Wikisource_Piedmontese. In italiano sono "Pagina", "Discussioni pagina", "Indice", "Discussioni indice" (da quando vedo voi non li state utilizzando, ma spero che questo cambi in futuro). Vi consiglierei anche di richiedere un namespace per gli autori ("Autore" e "Discussioni autore"), come c'è in quasi tutte le Wikisource (in modo da tenere separati testi e autori), ma decidete voi.

Poi, una volta che Steven avrà il vostro assenso, nel giorno di qualche giorno verrà creato il sito e ci verranno copiate le pagine (quando questo succederà, ovviamente dovrete sospendere un attimo i lavori per non fare modifiche che potrebbero andare perdute nello spostamento). Poi sul nuovo sito andranno copiati da qui i necessari template e le pagine di configurazione (e questo posso farlo io), ed eventualmente andranno tradotti ed adattati. Il nuovo sito avrà bisogno di un amministratore fisso, che ovviamente può essere uno di voi tre con il consenso degli altri due. In linea di massima, il nuovo sito potrebbe essere pienamente funzionante già nel giro di 3-4 giorni, e a quel punto per la normale gestione del sito non serviranno particolari competenze tecniche; cercheremo comunque di rendervi più autonomi possibile.

P.S. Sorry Ooswesthoesbes and Steven for writing in Italian, I'm just explaining them what the next steps will be and offering my help to set up the new site. --Candalua (talk) 09:11, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Italian: No problem, we can figure out the basics :)

@Categories: Yes, all pages should be in Category:Piemontèis or one of its subcategories. This includes talk pages (they are often forgotten). --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:59, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Project is approved. I've asked User:MF-Warburg to start a phabricator. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:46, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

@Ooswesthoesbes, MF-Warburg, Carlo ellena, Majo Galin-a, Borichèt: I have consulted my co-workers about having a pms.wikisource and they are delighted about it and favourable. I have also contacted the main curator of pms.wikipedia, https://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utent:Borichèt, and he, time permitting him, will also be ready to participate and willing to vote for it. All pms pages are already properly categorized and there should not be problems with those for moving them. Just please tell me **detailed instructions** on how to proceed, but please keep the structure of the material already present in: https://wikisource.org/wiki/Main_Page/Piemontèis I am also very concerned about our Piedmontese translation of the Bible, https://wikisource.org/wiki/La_Bibia_piemontèisa which is a **major work** and nothing should go lost! WSill it go also under pms.wikisource? Its structure must need to be kept as it is. The work done with it was huge. —unsigned comment by Pcastellina (talk) 07:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC).

You don't have to worry about that. Everything is copied as it is, including the page history. As long as all used templates are also copied over, the structure should remain the same. Should anything not look right, just contact one of us :) Also, we will check if all pages are copied properly.

There is not a lot to do for you, except for the message I posted on your talk page. Basically, just keep contributing here until the subdomain is created. Once everything is copied to the subdomain, start contributing there. To be sure all recent edits are copied, just temporarily stop contributing between the time the wiki is created and the contents is moved to there. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 10:20, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

More logistics

1. @Candalua, Pcastellina, Ooswesthoesbes: Unless one of the other contributors votes "no" by the end of the day my time, I'm assuming the above constitutes assent to go forward.
2. OWTB, I assume that the sysops here and MF-W (and Robin, I guess) have a system you use for marking templates that are supposed to copy over. Before Candalua starts offering to copy templates and modules, I imagine all of you should work with the exporter/importer person, so that as much as possible can be done in a single XML transfer.
3. Talk pages: Don't forget Category talk pages, even if only this one.
4. Candalua: Are there any pages in it.wikisource that need moving?
5. For one of you to become an administrator, what has to happen is that there has to be a formal RfA discussion, on a public page of the new wiki, lasting at least seven days. In that discussion, you will nominate one or more administrators. The user community is invited to participate, to make comments, and to support or oppose the nomination. (The discussion can be in Italian, rather than Piedmontese, as long as nobody objects and everyone understands.)
   • In principle, normal rules for Administrator elections apply. I guess your default rules will be those of it.wikisource, unless you decide something different. Assuming nobody objects to whoever is nominated, what will happen in practice is that the people elected will then go to Meta and ask the stewards to grant the permission. The stewards will do so, usually for 3–6 month terms at first, and then lengthening. (The term will never be permanent as long as the community is small.)
   • I'm thinking that it might be good for Candalua to request the permission during the first term, along with one of the three of you, just to help keep things running smoothly. (Candalua has a lot of administrator experience and can show you how to do things.) MF-W may be willing to flag Cndalua for a couple of weeks without an election if a lot of problems crop up in the transfer process.

OWTB, am I missing anything? StevenJ81 (talk) 16:23, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

@Templates: Actually, this is a rather problematic thing. Many Wikisources have been copied over without the templates when they were not properly categorized (f.e. the Basque wikisource). I know there is such a thing as "Included all templates" in the export/import interface, but I'm not familiar with it, so I can't tell what it does. If it implies that templates are subst:ed, that would be a very bad case. I guess the easiest thing to do will be to make a list of all general templates (used by more wikisource tests) and present them to MF-Warburg, so he can also export and import them simultaneously.

@Missing: The only thing I can imagine is that Pcastellina has created a few banner images which include links to this wikisource; they have to be updated so they link to the domain site when it is created. That's all I can think of right now :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 19:07, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I'm thinking there ought to be a category [[Category:Key templates for export]] for these things. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:45, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

That is a good idea :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 09:24, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

The "include all templates" option includes all templates as pages, however I don't use it usually because it has some problems. So having a list of templates to export is best. --MF-Warburg (talk) 12:11, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for letting us know. We will compile a list of most-used templates to be imported to any new subdomain, even if they are not used in the test wiki themselves. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 12:18, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

I created Category:Key templates for export. I think we should include in it only the template which are mandatory for the new wiki to function properly, i.e. the ProofreadPage templates: we don't want to export generic templates which the new wiki may not need. (By the way, the best thing would be if every linguistic community creates its own templates, and doesn't use the generic ones. Maybe we should write a guide to teach people about that.) --Candalua (talk) 12:29, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Many wikis don't use proofread though. I think the templates I put down below are so common, that in most cases, the wiki will look entirely broken if they are not copied as well. If they don't need the templates, they can always be deleted afterwards. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:24, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Many don't use it, but ProofreadPage is installed by default, so we also make it work by default in case someone decides to use it. --Candalua (talk) 13:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

That's true. For now, I think we should simply import the ProofreadPage and the most commonly used templates. Sorting it out per test is too much work. Encouraging the users to create their own language-specific templates is something I would very much like to help with :) If a test has everything language-specific, we could simply skip importing the most commonly used templates, and only import the ProofreadPage. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 14:42, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Templates list

I'm writing a list of necessary templates to be exported to the new wiki.

• ProofreadPage templates. This are generally created manually in the new wikis, but they should really be exported, so that the new site is fully operational since the very first moment:
  • MediaWiki:Proofreadpage index template
  • MediaWiki:Proofreadpage pagenum template
  • MediaWiki:Proofreadpage index data config
  • MediaWiki:Proofreadpage header template
• Generic templates that I found in some pms pages:
  • Template:Header
  • Template:Chapter
  • Template:Verse
  • Template:TOCright
  • Template:Center

--Candalua (talk) 09:23, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Other common templates (not necessarily used in pms):

• Template:Clear
• Template:Right
• Template:Left
• Template:Smaller
• Template:Gap
• Template:Size
• Template:Larger
• Template:X-larger
• Template:Xx-larger
• Template:Noindent
• Template:Letter-spacing
• Template:Type
• Template:Chapter
• Template:Tab

--Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

phabricator

MF-W has created phabricator:T194879 for this. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:51, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Hi all, as the wiki is now created I imported all pages listed on my userpage (i.e. the content of this category) and the templates listed above. Please tell me if any more pages are needed. --MF-Warburg (talk) 12:21, 8 June 2018 (UTC)